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#21
General Discussions / Re: C.T. Russell vs The Organi...
Last post by Albert - May 03, 2024, 06:45 PMQuote from: RR on May 03, 2024, 06:25 PMIn my Bible discussions with Jehovah's Witnesses ...
Would it not be well for Watchtower leaders to read the advice of Jesus who dealt with the pride of his own disciples. He said at Mark 9:35, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be last of all and minister of all." - NWT
I read quickly over your post, until I read the line at the very end - that's when you got my interest! You are right, Jesus had a standard in mind for Church leadership. I wonder how others are going to reply!
#22
General Discussions / C.T. Russell vs The Organizati...
Last post by RR - May 03, 2024, 06:25 PMIn my Bible discussions with Jehovah's Witnesses, there is one topic that always seems to come up. They just can't wait to share with me that Jehovah has an Organization. Just what do they mean by "Organization"? The Watchtower Society says:
"Jehovah's organization is theocratic. This means that it is ruled by the direct administration of God, and all who desire to serve in association with the organization must respect the theocratic arrangement of things." (Qualified to be Ministers, 1955, p. 380)�
The earthly leaders of this organization are called the "Governing Body". The Watchtower says,
"... recognition of that governing body and its place in God's theocratic arrangement of things is necessary for submission to the headship of God's Son." (Watchtower, 12/15/72, p. 755)�
In light of these Watchtower claims, we will look at what the first Watchtower president, Charles Taze Russell, had to say about organization. We think you'll find his thoughts very interesting, if not enlightening. Did he believe a governing body should set rules for our lives?
Russell warned:
"Beware of It is wholly unnecessary. 'organization.' The Bible Do not rules will be the only rules you Will need. seek to bind others consciences....and đo not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's Word today...." (WATCH TOWER,1895, p. 216�
He also said:
"...it is plain that the forming of a visible organization of such gathered out ones would be out of harmony with the spirit of the divine plan ..." (Watch Tower, 1894, p. 384)�
Therefore, for Russell the Watchtower's founder, God's Church should not be an organization. Ironically. since Russell refused to recognize a central governing body of human leaders, he would certainly be "disfellowshipped" from the Jehovah's Witnesses today. Yes, Charles Russell would not qualify as a Christian in the eyes of today's Watchtower leaders. But Russell would not understand their reasoning.
He said:
"There is no organization today clothed with such divine authority to imperiously command mankind... though we are well aware that many of them in theory claim that they ought to be permitted to do so...."�
So we see a great battle between the thinking of present-day Watchtower leaders and their founder.
Early in his career Russell was asked this question, "Would not an earnest, aggressive organization, built upon Scriptural lines, be the best means of spreading and publishing the real Good Tidings?" In the March 1883 WATCH TOWER, page 6, he answered:
"The natural man can see that a visibly organized body, with a definite purpose, is a thing of more or less power...But the natural man cannot understand how a company of people, with no organization which they can see, is ever going to accomplish anything."�
Now it matters not what you may believe about Russell's character and theology. What I wish to illustrate is how the Watchtower's first president would argue that today's Watchtower organization has no right to even exist! Would it not be well for Watchtower leaders to read the advice of Jesus who dealt with the pride of his own disciples. He said at Mark 9:35, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be last of all and minister of all." - NWT
"Jehovah's organization is theocratic. This means that it is ruled by the direct administration of God, and all who desire to serve in association with the organization must respect the theocratic arrangement of things." (Qualified to be Ministers, 1955, p. 380)�
The earthly leaders of this organization are called the "Governing Body". The Watchtower says,
"... recognition of that governing body and its place in God's theocratic arrangement of things is necessary for submission to the headship of God's Son." (Watchtower, 12/15/72, p. 755)�
In light of these Watchtower claims, we will look at what the first Watchtower president, Charles Taze Russell, had to say about organization. We think you'll find his thoughts very interesting, if not enlightening. Did he believe a governing body should set rules for our lives?
Russell warned:
"Beware of It is wholly unnecessary. 'organization.' The Bible Do not rules will be the only rules you Will need. seek to bind others consciences....and đo not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's Word today...." (WATCH TOWER,1895, p. 216�
He also said:
"...it is plain that the forming of a visible organization of such gathered out ones would be out of harmony with the spirit of the divine plan ..." (Watch Tower, 1894, p. 384)�
Therefore, for Russell the Watchtower's founder, God's Church should not be an organization. Ironically. since Russell refused to recognize a central governing body of human leaders, he would certainly be "disfellowshipped" from the Jehovah's Witnesses today. Yes, Charles Russell would not qualify as a Christian in the eyes of today's Watchtower leaders. But Russell would not understand their reasoning.
He said:
"There is no organization today clothed with such divine authority to imperiously command mankind... though we are well aware that many of them in theory claim that they ought to be permitted to do so...."�
So we see a great battle between the thinking of present-day Watchtower leaders and their founder.
Early in his career Russell was asked this question, "Would not an earnest, aggressive organization, built upon Scriptural lines, be the best means of spreading and publishing the real Good Tidings?" In the March 1883 WATCH TOWER, page 6, he answered:
"The natural man can see that a visibly organized body, with a definite purpose, is a thing of more or less power...But the natural man cannot understand how a company of people, with no organization which they can see, is ever going to accomplish anything."�
Now it matters not what you may believe about Russell's character and theology. What I wish to illustrate is how the Watchtower's first president would argue that today's Watchtower organization has no right to even exist! Would it not be well for Watchtower leaders to read the advice of Jesus who dealt with the pride of his own disciples. He said at Mark 9:35, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be last of all and minister of all." - NWT
#23
General Discussions / Re: An Open Letter to Jehovah'...
Last post by RR - May 03, 2024, 06:16 PMQuote from: Jane on May 03, 2024, 06:11 PMI hope you understand what 'shaking the dust off' means......its not personal.
It means that I have done my job...I have given you the truth as I understand it...the rest is up to Jehovah. (John 6:44, 65)
Well Jane, all I can say is ... if paradise earth is what you want, then Paradise earth is what you'll get. You see. Jehovah is only calling one group of people, and that is the elect, and they are called for a specific purpose. He's not interested in any other group of people at this time. He'll turn His attention to the world when the Elect class is complete. So you see, heaven is for the elect, which you profess at this time NOT to be a part of. Restitution is for the rest of mankind, that would include you. So .... despite what you think of me, I'll see you in the Kingdom.
RR
#24
General Discussions / Re: An Open Letter to Jehovah'...
Last post by Jane - May 03, 2024, 06:11 PMQuote from: RR on May 03, 2024, 05:49 PMI guess you stopped singing to me, eh?
1) I'm not the fat lady....and 2) in accord with Matthew 10:11-14.....
"Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet." I am 'shaking the dust off'....
I hope you understand what 'shaking the dust off' means......its not personal.
It means that I have done my job...I have given you the truth as I understand it...the rest is up to Jehovah. (John 6:44, 65)
I chose to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses over 50 years ago because of the criteria outlined in the scriptures.....the Witnesses were the only ones who fulfilled the scriptural criteria......John 13:34-35....Matthew 24:14.....John 18:36....Matthew 5:43-44.....Matthew 26:52.
Being "no part of the world" means not adopting its political views or voting for corrupt its leaders, not participating in its bloodshed, and not imitating its greedy commercialism or watering down scriptural principles concerning sexual matters, marriage and divorce.
It also means removing ourselves from "Babylon the great" because God is about to give her her just reward for all the confusion and false religious ideas she has promoted in the world. Religious hatred, like political hatred, is the stuff of war and no Christian can harbor hatred in their heart for anyone...not even their enemies as Jesus said. We will take a bullet for our brothers but we will not fire one at anybody.
Our stance on many issues doesn't make us popular, especially with Christendom, but we put the kingdom and God's righteousness before all things as a globally united brotherhood. If we were not hated, or at least held in derision or mocked, I would be on the wrong road. (John 15:18-21)
#25
General Discussions / Re: An Open Letter to Jehovah'...
Last post by RR - May 03, 2024, 05:49 PMQuote from: Jane on May 03, 2024, 05:45 PMIts not over till the fat lady sings......all the best.
I guess you stopped singing to me, eh?
#26
General Discussions / Re: An Open Letter to Jehovah'...
Last post by Jane - May 03, 2024, 05:45 PMYour beliefs are your prerogative.....nothing to do with me.
I have done my job.....now shaking the dust off...have a nice life.
Its not over till the fat lady sings......all the best.
I have done my job.....now shaking the dust off...have a nice life.
Its not over till the fat lady sings......all the best.
#27
General Discussions / Re: An Open Letter to Jehovah'...
Last post by RR - May 03, 2024, 03:39 PMQuote from: Jane on May 03, 2024, 02:49 PMAnd this is based on the assumption that there was nothing left to know after the death of Charles Russell....
Russel basically only scratched the surface, and he himself knew that he would die and that others would have to take his place, to continue the work......what makes you think that he knew it all in those early days? Revelation of truth has always been progressive. The light on the path has to get brighter, or you remain in the dark.
As usual Jane, you avoid the discussion at hand. This has nothing to do with Russell. He didn't flip flop on doctrines. He never claimed "I am the Faithful and Wise Servant, God appointed me, you must do as I say" and then disfellowship anybody who didn't agree with him.
Quote from: Jane on May 03, 2024, 02:49 PMThat preaching work was to go on until "the end" came......so, where are the Bible Students in that assignment?
We're not out to save the world. They didn't close the door to heaven and gather a Great Crowd to do our bidding. When you understand what the preaching work is all about, you'll understand God's plan of salvation. There is no difference between JW's and Christendom in that regards. You both are out to save as many as possible before the end. They want to save people from the fires of hell, you want to save people from second death at Armageddon.
Quote from: Jane on May 03, 2024, 02:49 PMWho has even heard of them? In all my years of door to door preaching, I have never even met one.The ones searching for the Truth, that's who. We've had this discussion before. 7 years I've lived here and no one has knocked on my door or sent me a letter.
Quote from: Jane on May 03, 2024, 02:49 PMWho are known the world over for their kingdom preaching work....? I will let the evidence speak for itself. Could it be that you are the ones who are sincerely wrong? Jesus will let us all know soon enough.
The "join us or die at armageddon" shtick doesn't cut it with me. Besides you change your belief system so often, what is truth today may not be truth tomorrow. What teachings that may have brought a person into your organization may not be truth later. You convince someone "this is the Truth", only to change it a few years from now. That's not progressive, that's confusion.
Quote from: Jane on May 03, 2024, 02:49 PMWe believe that "the end" is very close as Jehovah lifts the lid on the wickedness that has been festering under the surface all along. No formerly trusted institution will remain standing.
Well, we agree on that at least.
#28
General Discussions / Re: An Open Letter to Jehovah'...
Last post by Jane - May 03, 2024, 02:49 PMQuote from: RR on May 02, 2024, 10:53 PMSome testify that they are sincere, but the Scriptures, testify that they are sincerely wrong.
And this is based on the assumption that there was nothing left to know after the death of Charles Russell....
Russel basically only scratched the surface, and he himself knew that he would die and that others would have to take his place, to continue the work......what makes you think that he knew it all in those early days? Revelation of truth has always been progressive. The light on the path has to get brighter, or you remain in the dark.
It's over a hundred years since Russell died.....the Bible Students were left in the lurch without a leader. It was a time of testing and sifting....would God leave Russell without a successor at the most important time period in history? Here we are over a hundred years into the future, and the ones who rejected Rutherford's leadership chose to stop learning and got trapped on the old path, because they built a fence with no way forward.....with no new light.
Daniel prophesied that in this "time of the end" "knowledge would become abundant" (Daniel 12:4, 9-10).....in Russell's day, knowledge was only beginning to be explored....so much more has been revealed since his death. Just because Rutherford was a different kind of man who took the brotherhood on a somewhat different path, those who stuck to the dead man, didn't want to accept change or any forward movement. That was their choice, but Jehovah's Witnesses took their commission seriously and their preaching continued "in all the inhabited earth" before "the end" would come, as Jesus instructed right up until the present day. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20)
When Jesus sent out his disciples to preach, he instructed them....
"Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet."
That preaching work was to go on until "the end" came......so, where are the Bible Students in that assignment?
Who has even heard of them? In all my years of door to door preaching, I have never even met one.
Who are known the world over for their kingdom preaching work....? I will let the evidence speak for itself. Could it be that you are the ones who are sincerely wrong? Jesus will let us all know soon enough.
We believe that "the end" is very close as Jehovah lifts the lid on the wickedness that has been festering under the surface all along. No formerly trusted institution will remain standing.
Our choices are ours to make......we can only hope that satan has not blinded us because we will be the last to know.
#29
General Discussions / An Open Letter to Jehovah's Wi...
Last post by RR - May 02, 2024, 10:53 PM"But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established" - Proverbs 4:18 (NWT)�
Let me ask you, when does light get brighter? Is there such a thing as old light? Well, the Watchtower thinks so, and not without reason. The Watchtower has, since the days of Judge Joseph Franklin Rutherford made countless changes in doctrinal as well as organizational matters. And have attributed these changes to the bright light getting lighter and lighter (Prov. 4:18 NWT). The above quoted scripture is a verse often used by the Watchtower Society to prove or apologize for their doctrinal changes. It is their answer to the seldomly asked question; "Why are Jehovah's Witnesses constantly changing their teachings?" According to the Watchtower Society (Jehovah's Witnesses legal corporation) when the light gets brighter, it simply means that there is a new understanding, more insight on a particular subject. The Society has in the past made adjustments in their teachings and have used this scripture to support their doing so. "The light is getting brighter" they say. "We have a better understanding", but is that the case?
We won't argue the point that in reading and studying the Scriptures, one can gain much insight. We certainly get a clearer understanding of the Scriptures as we carefully read a certain verse, chapter or book, and will gain a better understanding from some texts that we had not noticed before. However, The Bible assures us that God's Word does not change, neither does Jehovah God change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Yet the Society with their flip/flop doctrines have made Jehovah a God of confusion rather than a God of order. Which is in fact contrary to the Holy Scriptures.
The apostle Paul stated in his first letter to the brethren in Colossae; "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace". (14:33 KJV) In actuality what the Society is saying is that God is not sure of himself or his Plan for mankind. How so? Take for example what was taught in regards to the Sodomites, would the Sodomites be resurrected? According to the Watchtower Society's founder and first president Pastor Charles Taze Russell, they would be resurrected (Zion's Watch Tower - July 1879 p. 8 ). He based his teaching regarding the Sodomites on the fact that their judgment (proving that their judgment is future) would be more tolerable (proving that others would also have a judgment in the future) than Tyre and Sidon, even though their judgment would be less tolerable. (Matt. 11:22-24) However in 1952 it was stated that the Sodomites would not be resurrected (Watchtower June 1st). This, according to the Society, is a form of the bright light getting lighter and lighter. They now have a better understanding of the Scriptures in regards the future of the Sodomites - they have none. Jehovah by use of his holy spirit has corrected their thinking, their views on this matter. Now they are on the path of righteousness. The views of 1879 is now considered old light, error. In 1965 the Watchtower of August 1 stated that the Sodomites would be resurrected. Now what? What was once considered old light is now new light! Is that possible? Was not the first view considered wrong? Had not Jehovah set them straight in 1952? After all Jehovah God is directing the Watchtower Society! Isn't he, or is he? (Watchtower, November 01, 1956; p. 370). How can old light now become new light? It can't! Either the first view was correct and man changed it because he understood it to be so, and Jehovah corrected him. Or the first view was wrong, Jehovah corrected it and man reverted back to the false concept. If the latter is the case than Jehovah is not directing his organization properly, is he? He needs to correct them if indeed they did revert back to error. And that's exactly what he did according to the Watchtower, for in the June 01, 1988 Watchtower, it states the Sodomites will not be resurrected. Yet since then, that view has been changed back and forth. Either Jehovah God is not directing the Watchtower or he needs to abandon this organization for a new one.
The Watchtower Society has been so bold as to state that they are "the only organization on earth that understands the "deeper things of God'! (Watchtower July 01, 1973; p. 402). How can that be, when they do not even understand the simple things of God? What the Witnesses are actually being taught is that Jehovah is not sure himself what the outcome of the Sodomites will be. Yet do not the Scriptures teach that Jehovah is all-knowing? (Rom 11: 33, 1 Cor. 2:7) Light advances, it does not change. Views change because they are not in harmony with the Scriptures. Views can change numerous times. One day a view may be in harmony with the Scriptures, the next day it may not be. The important thing to remember is that the Scriptures, God's Word is the same, it will never change.
To indicate that God's word does change is not in harmony with the Scriptures. Furthermore, to say that Jehovah is in charge of an organization that is difficult to keep track of is absurd! Jehovah's Witnesses are being misled. They are taught they have the Truth of the Scriptures. Yet how can that be when the very ones who are teaching them to understand the Scriptures are in the dark? Truly this is a case of the blind leading the blind. (Matt. 15:14)
The issue of the Sodomites is just one of hundreds of doctrinal and organizational changes the Society has gone through. Changes have been made in the teachings of the Ransom, Chronology, Baptism, Hell, Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, the New Covenant, Prophecies, Salvation and countless others. Can this be God's organization? God's only channel of communication? Hardly! The only "Light" the Witnesses are in dire need of is the "Light" of the Scriptures, the Truth concerning our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. For our Lord said: "I am the light of the world" - John 8:12. The Witnesses are quick to apply 2 Corinthians 4:4 to those outside of their organization, which states; "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." They do not realize that it can and does apply to them. Jehovah's Witnesses should be commended for their many accomplishments and for their high morals. But unbeknownst to them they are being misguided. Some testify that they are sincere, but the Scriptures, testify that they are sincerely wrong.
RR
Let me ask you, when does light get brighter? Is there such a thing as old light? Well, the Watchtower thinks so, and not without reason. The Watchtower has, since the days of Judge Joseph Franklin Rutherford made countless changes in doctrinal as well as organizational matters. And have attributed these changes to the bright light getting lighter and lighter (Prov. 4:18 NWT). The above quoted scripture is a verse often used by the Watchtower Society to prove or apologize for their doctrinal changes. It is their answer to the seldomly asked question; "Why are Jehovah's Witnesses constantly changing their teachings?" According to the Watchtower Society (Jehovah's Witnesses legal corporation) when the light gets brighter, it simply means that there is a new understanding, more insight on a particular subject. The Society has in the past made adjustments in their teachings and have used this scripture to support their doing so. "The light is getting brighter" they say. "We have a better understanding", but is that the case?
We won't argue the point that in reading and studying the Scriptures, one can gain much insight. We certainly get a clearer understanding of the Scriptures as we carefully read a certain verse, chapter or book, and will gain a better understanding from some texts that we had not noticed before. However, The Bible assures us that God's Word does not change, neither does Jehovah God change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Yet the Society with their flip/flop doctrines have made Jehovah a God of confusion rather than a God of order. Which is in fact contrary to the Holy Scriptures.
The apostle Paul stated in his first letter to the brethren in Colossae; "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace". (14:33 KJV) In actuality what the Society is saying is that God is not sure of himself or his Plan for mankind. How so? Take for example what was taught in regards to the Sodomites, would the Sodomites be resurrected? According to the Watchtower Society's founder and first president Pastor Charles Taze Russell, they would be resurrected (Zion's Watch Tower - July 1879 p. 8 ). He based his teaching regarding the Sodomites on the fact that their judgment (proving that their judgment is future) would be more tolerable (proving that others would also have a judgment in the future) than Tyre and Sidon, even though their judgment would be less tolerable. (Matt. 11:22-24) However in 1952 it was stated that the Sodomites would not be resurrected (Watchtower June 1st). This, according to the Society, is a form of the bright light getting lighter and lighter. They now have a better understanding of the Scriptures in regards the future of the Sodomites - they have none. Jehovah by use of his holy spirit has corrected their thinking, their views on this matter. Now they are on the path of righteousness. The views of 1879 is now considered old light, error. In 1965 the Watchtower of August 1 stated that the Sodomites would be resurrected. Now what? What was once considered old light is now new light! Is that possible? Was not the first view considered wrong? Had not Jehovah set them straight in 1952? After all Jehovah God is directing the Watchtower Society! Isn't he, or is he? (Watchtower, November 01, 1956; p. 370). How can old light now become new light? It can't! Either the first view was correct and man changed it because he understood it to be so, and Jehovah corrected him. Or the first view was wrong, Jehovah corrected it and man reverted back to the false concept. If the latter is the case than Jehovah is not directing his organization properly, is he? He needs to correct them if indeed they did revert back to error. And that's exactly what he did according to the Watchtower, for in the June 01, 1988 Watchtower, it states the Sodomites will not be resurrected. Yet since then, that view has been changed back and forth. Either Jehovah God is not directing the Watchtower or he needs to abandon this organization for a new one.
The Watchtower Society has been so bold as to state that they are "the only organization on earth that understands the "deeper things of God'! (Watchtower July 01, 1973; p. 402). How can that be, when they do not even understand the simple things of God? What the Witnesses are actually being taught is that Jehovah is not sure himself what the outcome of the Sodomites will be. Yet do not the Scriptures teach that Jehovah is all-knowing? (Rom 11: 33, 1 Cor. 2:7) Light advances, it does not change. Views change because they are not in harmony with the Scriptures. Views can change numerous times. One day a view may be in harmony with the Scriptures, the next day it may not be. The important thing to remember is that the Scriptures, God's Word is the same, it will never change.
To indicate that God's word does change is not in harmony with the Scriptures. Furthermore, to say that Jehovah is in charge of an organization that is difficult to keep track of is absurd! Jehovah's Witnesses are being misled. They are taught they have the Truth of the Scriptures. Yet how can that be when the very ones who are teaching them to understand the Scriptures are in the dark? Truly this is a case of the blind leading the blind. (Matt. 15:14)
The issue of the Sodomites is just one of hundreds of doctrinal and organizational changes the Society has gone through. Changes have been made in the teachings of the Ransom, Chronology, Baptism, Hell, Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, the New Covenant, Prophecies, Salvation and countless others. Can this be God's organization? God's only channel of communication? Hardly! The only "Light" the Witnesses are in dire need of is the "Light" of the Scriptures, the Truth concerning our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. For our Lord said: "I am the light of the world" - John 8:12. The Witnesses are quick to apply 2 Corinthians 4:4 to those outside of their organization, which states; "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." They do not realize that it can and does apply to them. Jehovah's Witnesses should be commended for their many accomplishments and for their high morals. But unbeknownst to them they are being misguided. Some testify that they are sincere, but the Scriptures, testify that they are sincerely wrong.
RR