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#11

Bible Questions / Re: Why did God allow the devi...

Last post by Keryx - Sep 24, 2024, 10:12 PM

Why do you suppose God allowed Satan the devil in the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve?

Before Satan was Satan, he was a glorious being: Isaiah 14:12: (KJV) "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Being a "son of the morning" (or as the New American Standard Version says, the "star of the morning," implying he was bright and beautiful, like a light in heaven.

This gives us a glimpse of the glory Lucifer had before his fall, before he was known as Satan.    When speaking to Job, God revealed others with great heavenly glory at the beginning, as well as Lucifer, this morning star: Job 38:4–7: "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, who set its measurements? ...On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Jesus is the only other being described as a "morning star," so Lucifer must have been created as a glorious being (Revelation 22:16).

As a morning star, Lucifer was given the immense privilege of overseeing God's earthly family. He was protecting and guiding this new human creation on earth. Lucifer was chosen for this very specific responsibility.   

Lucifer is allegorically referred to as the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:12–15: "...take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD, You had the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering:... On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were the anointed cherub who covers, and I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you." 

Obviously, the literal King of Tyre was never a protector in the Garden of Eden, so we know this is allegorical. He (Lucifer) is described as an anointed cherub; anointed in the sense of expansion; outstretched (i.e. as with outstretched wings). God appointed Lucifer to "cover" Eden and protect it. God gave the privilege of oversight of this brand?new, magnificent physical creation to one of His highest and most respected angels because it was so important. Yet Lucifer made a choice to enhance his own glory and splendor instead of God's!

Quoting Bible Commentary by David Guzik on these verses in Ezekiel: "By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned: Because Satan is spoken of here as the king of Tyre, God spoke of Satan's sins in the same terms as Tyre's sins. Tyre was a highly commercialized city-state focused only on winning a profit. Satan's abundance of trading was found in his competitive spirit, his desire to be exalted above his associates (Isaiah 14:13-14). The dishonest business practices of the leaders of Tyre were a reflection of the dishonest, deceptive dealings of the spiritual power behind them. Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44) and comes only to steal, kill, and destroy (John 10:10)."

Lucifer made this terribly destructive choice after being given the responsibility for caring over the new creation: Ezekiel 28:16–17: "By the abundance of your trade you were internally filled with violence, and you sinned; therefore I have cast you as profane from the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, o covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground."

To directly answer the question, the being we know as Satan was created as a beautiful heavenly being. The King James Version refers to this being as Lucifer. Lucifer was given the job of protecting the first humans, Adam and Eve, in the Garden, but he violated God's trust and successfully tempted them away from God.

God allowed Satan to do what he did because He wanted humans and spirit beings to have the freedom to choose their behavior, also known as "free will." He didn't want to create robots that had no choice except to obey Him. God wants intelligent and willing obedience, rather than pre-programmed service to Him.

This means we (including Satan and the angels) have a choice in what we do. Lucifer (later named Satan) had free will to choose good, but he chose evil. He tempted Eve, who gave the fruit to Adam and then HE sinned too, causing a "chain reaction of sin" that affects all of us! God's wisdom permitted Satan's sin, even though it has resulted in temporary pain, sickness, and death.

This permission of evil for a time is providing an everlasting learning experience that will never be forgotten. God is allowing us to experience the painful effects of what the sin of disobedience brought. However, it's important to remember God promised a future earthly kingdom, in which everyone will be raised from the sleep of death and given an opportunity to live a righteous, everlasting life without sin. When everyone is raised from death and begins obeying the kingdom rules, they will gradually receive blessings better than they could ever imagine.

Everyone will remember the powerful lesson that choosing sin produces terrible consequences that lead to death. Because they experienced first-hand the damaging effects of sin, we believe most people will choose to live good, righteous lives on a perfect earth. Revelation 21:4, NLT says, "He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever."

Why didn't God stop Satan from tempting Eve? Because His plan was best for everyone to learn an everlasting lesson: sin and disobedience brings sadness and death, while obedience to God and His rules brings happiness and blessings. 

#12

Bible Questions / Why did God allow the devil in...

Last post by Kenneth - Sep 24, 2024, 10:03 PM

Why do you suppose God allowed Satan the devil in the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve?

#13

General Discussions / Re: Wake Up!

Last post by Kenneth - May 15, 2024, 10:29 PM

Why blame unbiblical doctrine on Creeds and Confessions? If the Creed is unbiblical prove from the Scripture how/why it is!

Look for instance at the doctrine here that you espouse. I'll point out only one point you make. You give us your opinions without bringing into harmony ALL the verses having to do with particular doctrines. You speak of man being a soul that dies, but you speak nothing of that part of our living soul that dies is flesh & bone, because the spirit that completes a living soul, returns to God who gave it. (Ecc. 12:7) Nor do you make any effort to prove what the state of being the spirit of man that returns to God in? If the soul that dies continues to be a spiritual body of believers in heaven after physical death, does the soul that shall die also include the spirit of man who dies in faith? (1Cor 15:44-49)

My understanding from Scripture shows me the outward body of flesh & bones of mankind is mortal, and therefore is destined to die, but the spirit within mankind that makes them complete living soul, that dies in faith (is born again) returns to God possessing the Spirit of Christ within. Because we have Christ's promise that we who have His Spirit within shall be eternally alive through Him until our body is physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible. (Eph 1:12-14) If the life we have through Christ's Spirit in us is eternal, and it is, when the outer body of man's soul that shall die, that death does not take the eternal spiritual life we have through His Spirit within our spirit.

Armed with this understanding, we have more clarity and greater knowledge of what Christ means when Scripture tells us the soul that sinneth shall die, does not mean that after the body of saints dies there is no longer life through our spirit that returns to God who gave it. If the soul that sins shall die means the spirit given us by God also ceases to have life after physical death, why does Christ promise us that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die?

So the soul that is the body of flesh & bones indeed does die, for every man is destined to death, but the life we receive through Christ's Spirit within our spirit continues to give eternal spiritual life to that part of man's soul that is spirit, that in Christ shall never die. It is for this reason that John writes of "souls" being alive in heaven after physical death. Not all souls, but those who have partaken of the first resurrection through the resurrection life of Christ.

#14

General Discussions / Re: Wake Up!

Last post by Albert - May 15, 2024, 08:12 PM

I agree with you 100%. A lot of the bad doctrine that you are talking about crept in from other cultures and paganism. Maybe it's because I'm a Sir Isaac Newton-like time freak, but I do get hung up (maybe more than I ought to) about the Sabbath and Feast Days of Leviticus 23. Unlike some churches that observe them, I won't make it a salvation issue, but not knowing them and what they are about IMO cripples certain aspects of Christian understanding of God's redemptive plan (and prophecy) contained therein. I won't push them on anyone - that's just me who wants to be aware and observe those times. That said, I noticed that more and more Christian churches are starting to adopt recognition of these feasts and how they play a major role in prophecy. 40 years ago, a person as myself would have been considered strange at best, and a heretic at worst. But like I said, I am noticing more and more churches adopting this and some of the things you are saying. I'm also seeing in Christian news about revivals all over the world. I can see there's a move of God, so let's just pray (and help out where we can) and let God do the rest, akin to Paul's statement "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase." But I promise that the next few years just around the corner are not going to be boring spiritually.

#15

Scripture Studies / The Battle of God and Magog

Last post by RR - May 11, 2024, 12:17 AM

"And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and Sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." - Revelation 20:7-10 (RSV),

Gog and Magog are the rebellious, deceived enemies of God. Even after the 1,000 year, peaceable reign of Christ, some will not love righteousness. They will attempt to disrupt society. Satan will use Gog and Magog as his earthly physical representatives to once again deceive mankind – as he did in the very beginning with mother Eve. If we knew ahead of time exactly who it will be, it wouldn't be much of a deception. Since Revelation is a book of symbols, we do not know the specifics of this final conflict.

The attempted deception will be a test determining who will follow Satan, Gog, and Magog into wickedness.

During the 1,000 years, every effort will be made to encourage reformation of heart. "The Spirit and the bride say Come and let him that hears say come and let him that is athirst come and whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely." Trees of life will be "for the healing of the nations and there shall be no more curse." (Revelation 22:2,3) All outward evil will be destroyed. "The Son of man shall send forth his angels and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and them which do iniquity." (Matthew 13:41)

Though opportunities will be given for physical, mental and moral healing, some will still be rebellious against God in their hearts. Satan's deceptions using Gog and Magog as his tools will expose those individuals. These people will be ones who choose not to follow love, justice, and obedience to God's holy will. However, those in harmony with God will not be deceived.

Satan and the unrighteous God and Magog will be destroyed in the symbolic lake of fire. The thought of "torment" is that of a "touchstone". In ancient times, a metal coin was scrapped (mistranslated as tormented) against the touchstone to determine the quality of the gold content. Similarly, the eternal remembrance of Satan's ways (a touchstone) will test (torment) every thought and concept as to whether it is righteous or not. See the expanded answer on "You say there is no hell and yet Revelation 20:10 mentions a lake of burning sulfur and those in the lake are tormented day and night forever."

#16

General Discussions / Wake Up!

Last post by RR - May 10, 2024, 11:23 PM

A great Light once came into a dark world. But it did not shine long: Jesus died on a cross. Soon afterward His disappointed friends were filled with joy at the news of His resurrection. They learned that He had given His life as a sacrifice for sins, and that His death was the basis for their salvation. Jesus' free gift enables salvation for all who shall ever believe. And earnest light-bearing followers continue to show forth that Light.

Not long after His death, unrighteous teachers assumed authority. They ignored the moral lessons in Hebrew Scripture. They invented theological language through which to conceal their own subtle changes and deceptions. Councils developed creeds through which they taught unholy errors, and those errors are still only too often accepted as authoritative truths. These councils demanded agreement with their creeds from all who wanted permission to speak from the pulpit in God's name.

Creed-taught error continues today. Evangelical crusaders and fundamentalist campaigners unknowingly misrepresent the true and loving God. When sincere, religious people express opinions which oppose God's revealed purpose, darkness only increases, masquerading as Christianity.

Many have not learned that man is a soul (Gen. 2:7). Instead, they believe what the serpent told Eve, "thou shalt not surely die." They have not learned that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezek. 18:4). Many do not understand that "the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23), or that death means non-existence.

God's mercy, the Bible says, "endureth forever," yet He is perceived as a God who reserves unending conscious punishment with literal fire for the unsaved. This idea obscures God's expressed intention to bless with resurrection all of the dead--both the just and the unjust.--Acts 24:15

Christians are told to love their enemies (Matt. 5:43-48). Having commanded us to love our enemies, would God then burn his? "God is love" (I John 4:16). Love motivated Him to offer His only Son for a depraved and sinful world (John 3:16). One with such love would surely not torture those same people even for one minute!

Many have not learned that God's judgments are intended to teach people about righteousness (Isa. 26:9). His judgments are also intended to destroy transgressions, evil, and evil doers (Psalm 39:8-10). Surely His mercy would ensure that no more than necessary punishment is exacted.

#17

Current Events / Re: 1878

Last post by Albert - May 10, 2024, 11:15 PM

Thanks for sharing some of the history in this. I usually only think of the Balfour Declaration, and the aid to Britain made by the Jew Chaim Weizmann in WW1. Creating a "national home for the Jews" in Palestine began with about 1% of the population being Jewish to the present Jewish State.

After the end of Ottoman control over the area there emerged all of the disputes by Christian nations and Muslim nations. It seems to have required, for the Jews, a "dividing of the Red Sea" in order to give them both a home and a State.

#18

Current Events / 1878

Last post by RR - May 10, 2024, 11:11 PM

The year 1878 was a turning point in the history of Israel. The land was in the hands of the Ottoman Empire governed from Turkey, but that empire was in decline especially following the Russo‑Turkish War from 1877 to 1878. This necessitated the Congress of Berlin in 1878 when Benjamin Disraeli led the British delegation. It was also the year the first Jewish kibbutz was set up and chronologically marked out for return of favor to Israel.

The Congress of Berlin ran from 13 June to 13 July. Disraeli attended with future prime ministers Lord Salisbury and Salisbury's nephew Arthur Balfour. The latter would later be known for the 1917 Balfour declaration to establish a homeland for the Jews in Israel. Participating nations included Greece, the Ottoman Empire (Turkey) and Russia. Russia had won that war but support by Britain helped the Ottomans maintain control by allowing the Jews and other minorities to have rights not only in the land of Israel but places like Romania, Serbia and Russia as well as Turkey and Greece.

A request was placed directly to the Congress for the "Jews in Palestine" to be given their independence. Although this was not part of the discussion at the Congress itself.

The first kibbutz Petah Tikva was established in 1878. It was inland from modern‑day Tel Aviv. Initially there were problems with the land there which only really thrived once the land was extensively cleared to make it habitable. It certainly was a landmark moment.

In December of this year Naphtali Imber wrote the poem 'Hatikvah' which became the Israeli national anthem. The chorus is as follows:

"Our hope is not yet lost,
The ancient hope,
To return to the land of our fathers,
The city where David encamped."

Chronologically it fits. Isaiah 40:2 says "Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins." Jeremiah was given the same message about the time "first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcasses of their detestable and abominable things." (Jer.16:18) This idea of a double means an equal period of time one of favor and a second one of disfavors. 1813 BC marks the death of Jacob whose name was changed to "Israel" when then the twelve sons of Israel formed the nation albeit they were living in Egypt. 1845 years mark the period from Jesus' death in 33 A.D. to 1878.

#19

Introductions and Experiences / Greetings

Last post by RR - May 03, 2024, 08:58 PM

Hello everyone,

Christian greetings and welcome to the forum. We'll see if it gets any activity. But in the meantime, this is RR, I've had a long presence on the internet, in and out of various forums. The Bible Students forum has been around for well over 20 years in various forms, social media killed it and it was shut down, and so I decided to
revive it.

I've been associated with the Bible Students since the 1980s. If you have any questions for me, feel free to ask.

RR

#20

General Discussions / Re: C.T. Russell vs The Organi...

Last post by RR - May 03, 2024, 07:37 PM

I read quickly over your post, until I read the line at the very end - that's when you got my interest! You are right, Jesus had a standard in mind for Church leadership. I wonder how others are going to reply!

What's interesting, the Witnesses will say that since the death of Russell they have received new light, new understanding of God's plan of Salvation. The problem is, were Russell to see what the organization he founded has become, he wouldn't recognize it. In fact, it was the Society AFTER his death that promoted him as "that faithful and wise servant" of Matthew 24:45. Now, were there those who believed he was during his lifetime? Sure, but he NEVER proclaimed himself as such, never claimed anything special. A few years after his death, the Society under the leadership of J.F. Rutherford, claimed "That Servant" was not an individual but a class, all true Christians associated with the Society, the 144,000 of revelation 7. Russell was then demoted from being THE Servant of Matthew 24, to being a member of that Servant Class. Then later he was kicked out of the class. How so? Well, Rutherford moved Christ's return 40 years. Claiming as the Witnesses believe today that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914, and then searching around for the next few years for those who were doing His will. Finding them in 1918, he appointed the Watchtower Society as his earthly channel. Since Russell died in 1916, he couldn't possibly be "That Servant" as an individual or part of "That Servant Class". It would take 100 years later for the Society to introduce new light and state that "That Servant Class" was not made up of the 144,000 left on earth but was indeed made up of the Governing Body who run the worldwide organization of Jehovah's Witnesses.

One must wonder why the Lord would return in 1914, chose a group of people doing a work He approved of, praise them for such a work and then reorganize them so drastically that they no longer resemble the work they were doing when he returned. A work that they have overhauled doctrinally and organizationally hundreds of times, so that what they taught in 1918, so no longer taught in 2018 and what was taught in 2018, is no longer taught in 2024. All under the guise of "new light". Jehovah is not a God of confusion; He is a God of Light and order.