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#1

General Discussions / How to make new friends

Last post by ThomasBuh - May 08, 2024, 06:11 PM

my wife and I have been searching about lately. The specifics on this blog is one of a kind and helpful and will assist my friends and I in our studies quite a bit. It looks like this forum has a significant amount of knowledge concerning the things I am interested in and other pages and info like wise show it. I'm not usually browsing websites all of the time although when I get a break i'm always looking for this type of knowledge or others similarly having to do with it.  If you get a chance, have a look at my website: thorough assessment and editing for thesis presentations

#2

Introductions and Experiences / Greetings

Last post by RR - May 03, 2024, 08:58 PM

Hello everyone,

Christian greetings and welcome to the forum. We'll see if it gets any activity. But in the meantime, this is RR, I've had a long presence on the internet, in and out of various forums. The Bible Students forum has been around for well over 20 years in various forms, social media killed it and it was shut down, and so I decided to
revive it.

I've been associated with the Bible Students since the 1980s. If you have any questions for me, feel free to ask.

RR

#3

General Discussions / Re: C.T. Russell vs The Organi...

Last post by RR - May 03, 2024, 07:37 PM

I read quickly over your post, until I read the line at the very end - that's when you got my interest! You are right, Jesus had a standard in mind for Church leadership. I wonder how others are going to reply!

What's interesting, the Witnesses will say that since the death of Russell they have received new light, new understanding of God's plan of Salvation. The problem is, were Russell to see what the organization he founded has become, he wouldn't recognize it. In fact, it was the Society AFTER his death that promoted him as "that faithful and wise servant" of Matthew 24:45. Now, were there those who believed he was during his lifetime? Sure, but he NEVER proclaimed himself as such, never claimed anything special. A few years after his death, the Society under the leadership of J.F. Rutherford, claimed "That Servant" was not an individual but a class, all true Christians associated with the Society, the 144,000 of revelation 7. Russell was then demoted from being THE Servant of Matthew 24, to being a member of that Servant Class. Then later he was kicked out of the class. How so? Well, Rutherford moved Christ's return 40 years. Claiming as the Witnesses believe today that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914, and then searching around for the next few years for those who were doing His will. Finding them in 1918, he appointed the Watchtower Society as his earthly channel. Since Russell died in 1916, he couldn't possibly be "That Servant" as an individual or part of "That Servant Class". It would take 100 years later for the Society to introduce new light and state that "That Servant Class" was not made up of the 144,000 left on earth but was indeed made up of the Governing Body who run the worldwide organization of Jehovah's Witnesses.

One must wonder why the Lord would return in 1914, chose a group of people doing a work He approved of, praise them for such a work and then reorganize them so drastically that they no longer resemble the work they were doing when he returned. A work that they have overhauled doctrinally and organizationally hundreds of times, so that what they taught in 1918, so no longer taught in 2018 and what was taught in 2018, is no longer taught in 2024. All under the guise of "new light". Jehovah is not a God of confusion; He is a God of Light and order.

#4

General Discussions / Re: C.T. Russell vs The Organi...

Last post by Albert - May 03, 2024, 06:45 PM

In my Bible discussions with Jehovah's Witnesses ...
Would it not be well for Watchtower leaders to read the advice of Jesus who dealt with the pride of his own disciples. He said at Mark 9:35, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be last of all and minister of all." - NWT

I read quickly over your post, until I read the line at the very end - that's when you got my interest! You are right, Jesus had a standard in mind for Church leadership. I wonder how others are going to reply!

#5

General Discussions / C.T. Russell vs The Organizati...

Last post by RR - May 03, 2024, 06:25 PM

In my Bible discussions with Jehovah's Witnesses, there is one topic that always seems to come up. They just can't wait to share with me that Jehovah has an Organization. Just what do they mean by "Organization"? The Watchtower Society says:

"Jehovah's organization is theocratic. This means that it is ruled by the direct administration of God, and all who desire to serve in association with the organization must respect the theocratic arrangement of things." (Qualified to be Ministers, 1955, p. 380)�

The earthly leaders of this organization are called the "Governing Body". The Watchtower says,

"... recognition of that governing body and its place in God's theocratic arrangement of things is necessary for submission to the headship of God's Son." (Watchtower, 12/15/72, p. 755)�

In light of these Watchtower claims, we will look at what the first Watchtower president, Charles Taze Russell, had to say about organization. We think you'll find his thoughts very interesting, if not enlightening. Did he believe a governing body should set rules for our lives?

Russell warned:

"Beware of It is wholly unnecessary. 'organization.' The Bible Do not rules will be the only rules you Will need. seek to bind others consciences....and đo not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's Word today...." (WATCH TOWER,1895, p. 216�

He also said:

"...it is plain that the forming of a visible organization of such gathered out ones would be out of harmony with the spirit of the divine plan ..." (Watch Tower, 1894, p. 384)�

Therefore, for Russell the Watchtower's founder, God's Church should not be an organization. Ironically. since Russell refused to recognize a central governing body of human leaders, he would certainly be "disfellowshipped" from the Jehovah's Witnesses today. Yes, Charles Russell would not qualify as a Christian in the eyes of today's Watchtower leaders. But Russell would not understand their reasoning.

He said:

"There is no organization today clothed with such divine authority to imperiously command mankind... though we are well aware that many of them in theory claim that they ought to be permitted to do so...."�

So we see a great battle between the thinking of present-day Watchtower leaders and their founder.

Early in his career Russell was asked this question, "Would not an earnest, aggressive organization, built upon Scriptural lines, be the best means of spreading and publishing the real Good Tidings?" In the March 1883 WATCH TOWER, page 6, he answered:

"The natural man can see that a visibly organized body, with a definite purpose, is a thing of more or less power...But the natural man cannot understand how a company of people, with no organization which they can see, is ever going to accomplish anything."�

Now it matters not what you may believe about Russell's character and theology. What I wish to illustrate is how the Watchtower's first president would argue that today's Watchtower organization has no right to even exist! Would it not be well for Watchtower leaders to read the advice of Jesus who dealt with the pride of his own disciples. He said at Mark 9:35, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be last of all and minister of all." - NWT

#6

General Discussions / Re: An Open Letter to Jehovah'...

Last post by RR - May 03, 2024, 06:16 PM

I hope you understand what 'shaking the dust off' means......its not personal.
It means that I have done my job...I have given you the truth as I understand it...the rest is up to Jehovah. (John 6:44, 65)

Well Jane, all I can say is ... if paradise earth is what you want, then Paradise earth is what you'll get. You see. Jehovah is only calling one group of people, and that is the elect, and they are called for a specific purpose. He's not interested in any other group of people at this time. He'll turn His attention to the world when the Elect class is complete. So you see, heaven is for the elect, which you profess at this time NOT to be a part of. Restitution is for the rest of mankind, that would include you. So .... despite what you think of me, I'll see you in the Kingdom.

RR

#7

General Discussions / Re: An Open Letter to Jehovah'...

Last post by Jane - May 03, 2024, 06:11 PM

I guess you stopped singing to me, eh?

1) I'm not the fat lady....and 2) in accord with Matthew 10:11-14.....
"Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet." I am 'shaking the dust off'....

I hope you understand what 'shaking the dust off' means......its not personal.
It means that I have done my job...I have given you the truth as I understand it...the rest is up to Jehovah. (John 6:44, 65)

I chose to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses over 50 years ago because of the criteria outlined in the scriptures.....the Witnesses were the only ones who fulfilled the scriptural criteria......John 13:34-35....Matthew 24:14.....John 18:36....Matthew 5:43-44.....Matthew 26:52.
Being "no part of the world" means not adopting its political views or voting for corrupt its leaders, not participating in its bloodshed, and not imitating its greedy commercialism or watering down scriptural principles concerning sexual matters, marriage and divorce.

It also means removing ourselves from "Babylon the great" because God is about to give her her just reward for all the confusion and false religious ideas she has promoted in the world. Religious hatred, like political hatred, is the stuff of war and no Christian can harbor hatred in their heart for anyone...not even their enemies as Jesus said. We will take a bullet for our brothers but we will not fire one at anybody.

Our stance on many issues doesn't make us popular, especially with Christendom, but we put the kingdom and God's righteousness before all things as a globally united brotherhood. If we were not hated, or at least held in derision or mocked, I would be on the wrong road. (John 15:18-21)

#8

General Discussions / Re: An Open Letter to Jehovah'...

Last post by RR - May 03, 2024, 05:49 PM

Its not over till the fat lady sings......all the best.

I guess you stopped singing to me, eh?

#9

General Discussions / Re: An Open Letter to Jehovah'...

Last post by Jane - May 03, 2024, 05:45 PM

Your beliefs are your prerogative.....nothing to do with me.
I have done my job.....now shaking the dust off...have a nice life.

Its not over till the fat lady sings......all the best.

#10

General Discussions / Re: An Open Letter to Jehovah'...

Last post by RR - May 03, 2024, 03:39 PM

And this is based on the assumption that there was nothing left to know after the death of Charles Russell....
Russel basically only scratched the surface, and he himself knew that he would die and that others would have to take his place, to continue the work......what makes you think that he knew it all in those early days? Revelation of truth has always been progressive. The light on the path has to get brighter, or you remain in the dark.

As usual Jane, you avoid the discussion at hand. This has nothing to do with Russell. He didn't flip flop on doctrines. He never claimed "I am the Faithful and Wise Servant, God appointed me, you must do as I say" and then disfellowship anybody who didn't agree with him.

That preaching work was to go on until "the end" came......so, where are the Bible Students in that assignment?

We're not out to save the world. They didn't close the door to heaven and gather a Great Crowd to do our bidding. When you understand what the preaching work is all about, you'll understand God's plan of salvation. There is no difference between JW's and Christendom in that regards. You both are out to save as many as possible before the end. They want to save people from the fires of hell, you want to save people from second death at Armageddon.

Who has even heard of them? In all my years of door to door preaching, I have never even met one.

The ones searching for the Truth, that's who. We've had this discussion before. 7 years I've lived here and no one has knocked on my door or sent me a letter.

Who are known the world over for their kingdom preaching work....? I will let the evidence speak for itself. Could it be that you are the ones who are sincerely wrong? Jesus will let us all know soon enough.

The "join us or die at armageddon" shtick doesn't cut it with me. Besides you change your belief system so often, what is truth today may not be truth tomorrow. What teachings that may have brought a person into your organization may not be truth later. You convince someone "this is the Truth", only to change it a few years from now. That's not progressive, that's confusion.

We believe that "the end" is very close as Jehovah lifts the lid on the wickedness that has been festering under the surface all along. No formerly trusted institution will remain standing.

Well, we agree on that at least.